After 40 years teaching in the Nova Scotia Tech university system I believe that a fair percentage of the students would be better off with a community college education. Some will mature and shine in that system and they will be able to proceed to university professional engineering status if they feel the need to a higher level. Some of my best engineering students were technician and technology graduates who brought a wealth of practical experience to the university setting. And I can say that everyone who took this route has been a very successful engineer and has contributed tremendously to the economy of the province. We have played down the importance of the trades and technology graduates and many students end up in university because their parents have been led to believe that the only path to success is through the university. As a Civil Engineering Faculty Advisor I often had to assess the cause of failure with marginal students. It usually was poor performance in the theoretical courses. Many of these I advised to transfer to technology programs – and several later thanked me for the advise. My motto was that it is much more fulfilling to be a good technician/technologist than a second rate engineer.
I just find it frustrating that a $10,000 cost for a short years education is still accepted. Go to NSCC get a full year learning adn finish in less years. If Universities actually taught for a full education year we could reduce teh # of years and that would help offset the full cost of a degree program. Now as for all the employee issues like wages, benefits, pensions, tenure etc I just wish there was a way the pay and benefits were indexed to performance and enrolement. Maybe if a prof has a class with 30% failure/dropout rates they get a years pension knocked off or get a poor perf eval and no raise or get their research right suspended etc so they have incentive to focus on their prime reason for them being there. Or maybe we incent for their class having higher enrollment. I think we need to go through a wake up phase of getting the “system” to start focusing on getting good results vs just not wanting to generate any waves. We may need this phase of negative awakening before we can get back to the positive reinforcement as I fear if we try the positive reinforcement first it could just feed the entitlement expectation. Anyway I know these things are much more complex than any of us can assess and fix on a blog but at least it gets a perspective that is needed out to more folks.
i’m a graduate of nscc and dalhousie.
i have a diploma in engineering technology from nscc and science degree from dalhousie.
i worked for a large industrial company and my background in enginneering was of benefit. i had little exposure to finance which was a shortfall and had to be made up on my own time through after hours work at the office and some MBA classes at night.do universities deliver value. yes there certainly is value and it varies depending on who is receiving it. but a value proposition inlcudes both the service delivered and the cost incurred. by that measure i think these institutions are lacking.
today it takes four years to get a Bsc , it only took 3 years in the 70’s and the diploma program at nscc was only 2 years.
at nscc we attended class all day, for 10 months for the 2 years. no wonder the students are in debt when they finish their programs at universities.
i had some wondeful professors but from my experience they spend too little time in the classroom and with their students. i was a tudor for a couple of years and my classes were always full because these first and second year students needed help. they couldn’t always get it from their instructor.
i think there is a culture that resists changing the way education is delivered. change has to start at the top to be effective and it has to be non-negotitable.
that may be part of the problem.
I am a graduate of Dal and Tech and my education was essential to my employment as an engineering professor at Tech over a 40 year period. Most of my research was done in conjunction with local firms but interestingly, was often thought to be too practical by my colleagues and granting authorities. Thankfully, times have changed and many engineering academic researchers now have direct links to industry. In terms of “value for money”, I believe that university administrations have grown proportionately more than the front-line academic group in the last 30 years. I fairness, this has often been driven by governments which have, in the interests of accountability, required increases in staff to produce the numerous reporting documents. Also, much more is being done to make students feel “more comfortable” in the academic setting than was ever done in my years as a student. As an example, Student Services, a well developed component of university administrations, didn’t exist 50 years ago. As a person who lives a 5 minute walk from the Dal campus, I can assure you that the university adds tremendously to the life of the city. Much of the city would cease to exist if the universities were removed. They truly are “engines” of our economy, partly because they bring federal and outside research dollars into the province.
Good for you Bill for having to spine to challenge some of these so-called “pillars” in our society. This is another huge problem and a major drain on the public purse. Many profs make good 6-figure salaries and do very little to actually EARN these high incomes AND pensions! The (underpaid) GRAD STUDENTS do most of the “heavy lifting” when it comes to actual teaching while many profs are rarely found at “work”. They’re all so wrapped up with “getting published”, or hooking their next “research grant” so they can write some “obscure” thing that will rarely be read by anyone, just so they can say they’ve been “published”. They are also driven by waiting ’till the next “contract talks” roll around so they can tell their employer about their 9,000 NEW grievances and hold the public purse up for ransom once again and let everyone know how “under-paid & under-appreciated they are! Poor babies! And oh, did I mention “Tenure”? Now that’s the point in their journey when they really “LIVE and go to heaven”!!! Abolish tenure! Talk about a profession(?) that’s under-worked & OVERpaid – well just scrape a few layers of veneer off these guys and see what’s really underneath! Think I’m kidding, well have a close look and maybe you can offer some cheese to go with these “w(h)iners”…
Great topic and good fodder for conversation. As a research associate at Dalhousie from 1997 – 2004, we had difficultly establishing a financially sustainable research unit that could work within the university research policies. Today, the Cities & Environment Unit provides a very successful model which combines research, student learning opportunities, and community action. Check it out at: http://ceu.architectureandplanning.dal.ca/.
As well, below is an excerpt from my recent blog post: The Future of Our Universities. I would love to discuss this further with anyone who is interested.
The Future of Our Universities
Recently I was doing some research for a project proposal related to the future of universities and the emerging trends that are shaping them. While it is a topic that generally interests me given my years working as a research associate at Dalhousie University, my background in urban and rural planning, and my current work in change management—what really got me thinking were how changes in the university landscape were going to impact Nova Scotia, and more specifically, Halifax; and how a culture based on steeped tradition was going to evolve itself to continue to thrive in the coming decades.
As Bill Black points out in his blog on scholar dollars, universities are extraordinarily important to Nova Scotia – providing over 11,000 jobs – and are integral to the fabric of their communities. With a global society in motion due to evolving economic, technological and societal circumstances and values, it is really worth thinking about the future of the education industry and the opportunities are currently in play.
Of the many trends and predictions about the future of universities – speculative and emerging – a number of questions have really piqued my interest in terms of their impact on this changing landscape and how this will affect the city and the province. Here are a few:
1. REMAINING COMPETITIVE IN A GROWING MARKETING PLACE. Given the emergence of online universities, like the U.K.’s Open University, foreign and domestic for-profit educational institutions, and the educational offering of not-for-profit institutions like libraries and museums, what are Nova Scotia’s institutions going to do to remain competitive and vibrant in
I graduated from a NS University over 15 years ago. My first year tution was only $1700, and I understand that the cost for only 1 full year course now exceeds this. While I value my expeirence in attending a small NS University…..at todays costs I would choose a community college experience. The NS Community costs are more in line with providing an affordable “Nova Scotia” educational experience and for the most part open more doors with some wonderful immediate employment opportunities. Really it comes down to supply and demand and the NS University Systems with their higher overhead…..salaries etc. is causing less interest/demand and therefore issues with enrollments.
Looking back over 40 years I can say conclusively that my degrees were valuable for my employment. University research is very incremental for the most part, most projects building on many prior from around the world so it’s difficult to associate any given project with a particular applied outcome.
Universities do yield value for money, but some students might be better advised to consider community college programs.
The many employees and students at our N.S. universities add tremendously to their communities’ vitality and culture.
As for the pay of senior administrators, these are not out of line with the managers of businesses with similar-sized operating budgets, in fact likely below most. The CEOs of Emera and NSPI both make substantially more than the President of Dalhousie.
There is however a need for more accountability on university spending, and also investments, to the public and their own boards. A single annual financial report is far too little.
I graduated from Dal. Last year I read somewhere that the president makes over $400,000 a year. It concerns me that I have since tried to find this information to verify it and cannot. If it is true, it bothers me when I am asked for a donation because I find this rate of pay excessive. I’m not saying he should not be paid well, it is an important position. Just for me personally, it is hard to get my head around donating to Dal to support something I find excessive (not counting my tax dollars that also support this) and not of any additional benefit to the students who leverage their entire future in student loans. That is not delivering value for money in my opinion.
Finally, some one has raised the issue of what tax money goes to universities, and we need to also keep in mind what goes to schools as well. The universities are basically “subsidized ” while we say our schools are “funded”. The average taxpayer sees very little about this flow of money. Do we know where that money goes? Do we care ? We, should , as these budgets are growing right behind health care, and we see things that don’t add up. University and teacher salary demands, operating costs, and even pension plans all being some what subsidized. With a shrinking and aging population , do we have a problem? With a very rural province , how much of our municipal taxes are going to education ? Think its like 30% but who knows where that goes? We need more transparency. We’re a little province supporting 7 universities, and a separate French and English school board system . Are we getting a good return ? UPEI has a tourism research team. Memorial is involved in the offshore I believe.
I might be beating a dead horse, but thank you for ptosing this!
Doc | July 8, 2011 |
After 40 years teaching in the Nova Scotia Tech university system I believe that a fair percentage of the students would be better off with a community college education. Some will mature and shine in that system and they will be able to proceed to university professional engineering status if they feel the need to a higher level. Some of my best engineering students were technician and technology graduates who brought a wealth of practical experience to the university setting. And I can say that everyone who took this route has been a very successful engineer and has contributed tremendously to the economy of the province. We have played down the importance of the trades and technology graduates and many students end up in university because their parents have been led to believe that the only path to success is through the university. As a Civil Engineering Faculty Advisor I often had to assess the cause of failure with marginal students. It usually was poor performance in the theoretical courses. Many of these I advised to transfer to technology programs – and several later thanked me for the advise. My motto was that it is much more fulfilling to be a good technician/technologist than a second rate engineer.
Ron Gilkie | January 10, 2011 |
I just find it frustrating that a $10,000 cost for a short years education is still accepted. Go to NSCC get a full year learning adn finish in less years. If Universities actually taught for a full education year we could reduce teh # of years and that would help offset the full cost of a degree program. Now as for all the employee issues like wages, benefits, pensions, tenure etc I just wish there was a way the pay and benefits were indexed to performance and enrolement. Maybe if a prof has a class with 30% failure/dropout rates they get a years pension knocked off or get a poor perf eval and no raise or get their research right suspended etc so they have incentive to focus on their prime reason for them being there. Or maybe we incent for their class having higher enrollment. I think we need to go through a wake up phase of getting the “system” to start focusing on getting good results vs just not wanting to generate any waves. We may need this phase of negative awakening before we can get back to the positive reinforcement as I fear if we try the positive reinforcement first it could just feed the entitlement expectation. Anyway I know these things are much more complex than any of us can assess and fix on a blog but at least it gets a perspective that is needed out to more folks.
blair | January 10, 2011 |
i’m a graduate of nscc and dalhousie.
i have a diploma in engineering technology from nscc and science degree from dalhousie.
i worked for a large industrial company and my background in enginneering was of benefit. i had little exposure to finance which was a shortfall and had to be made up on my own time through after hours work at the office and some MBA classes at night.do universities deliver value. yes there certainly is value and it varies depending on who is receiving it. but a value proposition inlcudes both the service delivered and the cost incurred. by that measure i think these institutions are lacking.
today it takes four years to get a Bsc , it only took 3 years in the 70’s and the diploma program at nscc was only 2 years.
at nscc we attended class all day, for 10 months for the 2 years. no wonder the students are in debt when they finish their programs at universities.
i had some wondeful professors but from my experience they spend too little time in the classroom and with their students. i was a tudor for a couple of years and my classes were always full because these first and second year students needed help. they couldn’t always get it from their instructor.
i think there is a culture that resists changing the way education is delivered. change has to start at the top to be effective and it has to be non-negotitable.
that may be part of the problem.
j. betts | October 12, 2010 |
I am a graduate of Dal and Tech and my education was essential to my employment as an engineering professor at Tech over a 40 year period. Most of my research was done in conjunction with local firms but interestingly, was often thought to be too practical by my colleagues and granting authorities. Thankfully, times have changed and many engineering academic researchers now have direct links to industry. In terms of “value for money”, I believe that university administrations have grown proportionately more than the front-line academic group in the last 30 years. I fairness, this has often been driven by governments which have, in the interests of accountability, required increases in staff to produce the numerous reporting documents. Also, much more is being done to make students feel “more comfortable” in the academic setting than was ever done in my years as a student. As an example, Student Services, a well developed component of university administrations, didn’t exist 50 years ago. As a person who lives a 5 minute walk from the Dal campus, I can assure you that the university adds tremendously to the life of the city. Much of the city would cease to exist if the universities were removed. They truly are “engines” of our economy, partly because they bring federal and outside research dollars into the province.
Ron Gilkie | September 21, 2010 |
Good for you Bill for having to spine to challenge some of these so-called “pillars” in our society. This is another huge problem and a major drain on the public purse. Many profs make good 6-figure salaries and do very little to actually EARN these high incomes AND pensions! The (underpaid) GRAD STUDENTS do most of the “heavy lifting” when it comes to actual teaching while many profs are rarely found at “work”. They’re all so wrapped up with “getting published”, or hooking their next “research grant” so they can write some “obscure” thing that will rarely be read by anyone, just so they can say they’ve been “published”. They are also driven by waiting ’till the next “contract talks” roll around so they can tell their employer about their 9,000 NEW grievances and hold the public purse up for ransom once again and let everyone know how “under-paid & under-appreciated they are! Poor babies! And oh, did I mention “Tenure”? Now that’s the point in their journey when they really “LIVE and go to heaven”!!! Abolish tenure! Talk about a profession(?) that’s under-worked & OVERpaid – well just scrape a few layers of veneer off these guys and see what’s really underneath! Think I’m kidding, well have a close look and maybe you can offer some cheese to go with these “w(h)iners”…
WW | May 18, 2010 |
Great topic and good fodder for conversation. As a research associate at Dalhousie from 1997 – 2004, we had difficultly establishing a financially sustainable research unit that could work within the university research policies. Today, the Cities & Environment Unit provides a very successful model which combines research, student learning opportunities, and community action. Check it out at: http://ceu.architectureandplanning.dal.ca/.
As well, below is an excerpt from my recent blog post: The Future of Our Universities. I would love to discuss this further with anyone who is interested.
The Future of Our Universities
Recently I was doing some research for a project proposal related to the future of universities and the emerging trends that are shaping them. While it is a topic that generally interests me given my years working as a research associate at Dalhousie University, my background in urban and rural planning, and my current work in change management—what really got me thinking were how changes in the university landscape were going to impact Nova Scotia, and more specifically, Halifax; and how a culture based on steeped tradition was going to evolve itself to continue to thrive in the coming decades.
As Bill Black points out in his blog on scholar dollars, universities are extraordinarily important to Nova Scotia – providing over 11,000 jobs – and are integral to the fabric of their communities. With a global society in motion due to evolving economic, technological and societal circumstances and values, it is really worth thinking about the future of the education industry and the opportunities are currently in play.
Of the many trends and predictions about the future of universities – speculative and emerging – a number of questions have really piqued my interest in terms of their impact on this changing landscape and how this will affect the city and the province. Here are a few:
1. REMAINING COMPETITIVE IN A GROWING MARKETING PLACE. Given the emergence of online universities, like the U.K.’s Open University, foreign and domestic for-profit educational institutions, and the educational offering of not-for-profit institutions like libraries and museums, what are Nova Scotia’s institutions going to do to remain competitive and vibrant in
read more at: http://www.facebook.com/pages/BURST/116328481720466?ref=ts
Patty Bubsy | April 22, 2010 |
I graduated from a NS University over 15 years ago. My first year tution was only $1700, and I understand that the cost for only 1 full year course now exceeds this. While I value my expeirence in attending a small NS University…..at todays costs I would choose a community college experience. The NS Community costs are more in line with providing an affordable “Nova Scotia” educational experience and for the most part open more doors with some wonderful immediate employment opportunities. Really it comes down to supply and demand and the NS University Systems with their higher overhead…..salaries etc. is causing less interest/demand and therefore issues with enrollments.
grahame coleman | February 16, 2010 |
Looking back over 40 years I can say conclusively that my degrees were valuable for my employment. University research is very incremental for the most part, most projects building on many prior from around the world so it’s difficult to associate any given project with a particular applied outcome.
Universities do yield value for money, but some students might be better advised to consider community college programs.
The many employees and students at our N.S. universities add tremendously to their communities’ vitality and culture.
As for the pay of senior administrators, these are not out of line with the managers of businesses with similar-sized operating budgets, in fact likely below most. The CEOs of Emera and NSPI both make substantially more than the President of Dalhousie.
There is however a need for more accountability on university spending, and also investments, to the public and their own boards. A single annual financial report is far too little.
B | February 16, 2010 |
I graduated from Dal. Last year I read somewhere that the president makes over $400,000 a year. It concerns me that I have since tried to find this information to verify it and cannot. If it is true, it bothers me when I am asked for a donation because I find this rate of pay excessive. I’m not saying he should not be paid well, it is an important position. Just for me personally, it is hard to get my head around donating to Dal to support something I find excessive (not counting my tax dollars that also support this) and not of any additional benefit to the students who leverage their entire future in student loans. That is not delivering value for money in my opinion.
M | February 11, 2010 |
Finally, some one has raised the issue of what tax money goes to universities, and we need to also keep in mind what goes to schools as well. The universities are basically “subsidized ” while we say our schools are “funded”. The average taxpayer sees very little about this flow of money. Do we know where that money goes? Do we care ? We, should , as these budgets are growing right behind health care, and we see things that don’t add up. University and teacher salary demands, operating costs, and even pension plans all being some what subsidized. With a shrinking and aging population , do we have a problem? With a very rural province , how much of our municipal taxes are going to education ? Think its like 30% but who knows where that goes? We need more transparency. We’re a little province supporting 7 universities, and a separate French and English school board system . Are we getting a good return ? UPEI has a tourism research team. Memorial is involved in the offshore I believe.
PS | February 9, 2010 |